RE: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights Watch

From: Paul Cockshott <>
Date: Sun Sep 21 2008 - 17:57:37 EDT

I dont know enough about the relative politics of Baduel and Chavez to form an independent judgement on that matter.

I have read most of Dieterich's book on 21st century socialism in its Spanish and German
editions, and from that reading I think you somewhat misrepresent his ideas about value and
socialism. My assesment is that he basically agrees with the views that Allin and I have
put forward in our book on socialism, though his presentation is perhaps more poetic and
less precise than our own.

Paul Cockshott
Dept of Computing Science
University of Glasgow
+44 141 330 1629

-----Original Message-----
From: on behalf of paul bullock
Sent: Sun 9/21/2008 8:33 PM
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights Watch
RE: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights WatchYour article starts by refering to Heinz Dieterich is this the editor? If so I do hope his association with Baduel is clear in your mind as well as his notion that the law of value can be used to construct socialism

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Paul Cockshott
  To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list ; Outline on Political Economy mailing list
  Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:18 PM
  Subject: RE: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights Watch

  On what Alexandro says.
  I have been asked to contribute a chapter to a book to appear in Venezuela touching on these issues.
  I enclose it prior to translation.
  It contains a certain amount of coded criticism of the sort of thing that he is mentioning.
  I dont lay claim to it being anything more than journalistic rather than scholarly due to the extreemely tight
  time schedule that I had to meet.

  Paul Cockshott
  Dept of Computing Science
  University of Glasgow
  +44 141 330 1629

  -----Original Message-----
  From: on behalf of Alejandro Agafonow
  Sent: Sun 9/21/2008 10:04 AM
  To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
  Subject: Re: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights Watch

  I am close to Jurriaan:

  We are not anymore in the 1960's when U.S. senators Allen Ellender and James Eastland said in an official act that Latin America needed more dictators like Trujillo, then dictatorship of Dominican Republic.

  If Human Right Watch were a CIA's agent, our time is marked by the paradoxical situation that this agent at the service of the empire criticizes it, because of its contradictory policy toward human rights. The criticism of Human Right Watch to USA because of Guantanamo and other cases are well known (See:

  So, we should be less tolerant with authoritarian leaders like Hugo Chávez and Fidel Castro. They discredit Socialism.

  A. Agafonow

> I think there's no real evidence that the US has intentions to invade Venezuela, Bolivia or Cuba,
> although various scenarios have no doubt been drawn up which meantime sit in the policy cupboard,
> and there's a bit of the usual subversion here and there - but actually Latin American intelligence
> services are getting a whole lot better at spotting CIA and other subversive Yanqui geeks in their country.

  Hi Jurriaan:

  It is not "paronoid reification" for Venezuela, Bolivia, and Cuba to fear a US invasion or US-sponsored
  coup. There was, after all, the 2002 coup in Venezuela which was planned and orchestrated by the
  US. Just recently, some military leaders in Venezuela were caught on tape planning Chavez's
  assasination and a coup. If you don't think the US had a hand in that then I don't think you've
  been paying enough attention to Latin American history. Meanwhile, there is evidence that the US
  is behind the "sessession" movement by the reactionary opponents of Morales. This is what led to the
  diplomatic crisis between Bolivia (and Venezuela and other Latin American nations) and the US.
  Then there's Cuba. Surely there isn't a single Cuban who has forgot the role of the US in the
  attempted invasion of their nation (not to mention CIA plots to assasinate Fidel Castro). And,
  as was pointed out in the introduction to the article by Charley Allan, no one in Latin America
  has forgotten the US-planned and financed junta which assasinated Allende and thousands
  of others and brought decades of repression against the Left and working class of Chile.

> It is true that there are still some maniacs in the NSC, and one hopes that if Mr Obama wins the
> election, all those people will be purged.

  _That_ is what there is no evidence to believe!

> I would say that the biggest threat to Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba is bad socialist economics - an
> unrealistic, doctrinaire approach to ownership relations; a paranoid hostility to financial economics,
> premised on the idea that the general aim is to get rid of markets altogether because they are all bad;
> and an unwillingness to experiment with different organisational styles to create a better life.

  "Socialist economics" in Venezuela and Bolivia? Where did you get that from? Although there is a
  desire by the Bolivarians in Venezuela for "21st Century socialism" this has not been codified into
  a series of policies like you suggest above. Nor has there been "socialist economics" in Bolivia -
  unless you think that land reform and basic redistribution policies qualify as socialist economic
  policies. Indeed, I don't think there is any serious person in either Venezuela or Bolivia who actually
  believes those nations are socialist and/or their economic policies are of the character - or even have
  the "aim" - that you assert above.

  In solidarity, Jerry
  ----- Mensaje original ----
  De: Gerald Levy <>
  Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <>
  Enviado: domingo, 21 de septiembre, 2008 3:10:16
  Asunto: Re: [OPE] Venezuela and Human Rights Watch



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