Re: [OPE] Venezuela again

From: Alejandro Agafonow <>
Date: Wed Jan 28 2009 - 14:07:52 EST

There are Marxists and non-Marxists socialists in this list that are not Stalinists. Besides, I am open to revise liberal institutions. I myself think that we can go beyond liberal democracy and the welfare state.   But not at the expense of liquidating the values an institutions that let anti-system scholars like you express your ideas without fearing retaliations, and even having very wealthy positions in liberal universities of capitalist countries.  A. Agafonow ________________________________ De: "" <> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <> Enviado: miércoles, 28 de enero, 2009 19:45:56 Asunto: Re: [OPE] Venezuela again Hi Alejandro, you take a curious position in this debate, not accepting the validity of the opinions of people that do not agree with your own ideas. It is clear that the debate here is not only about different opinions, but about opinions based on different theoretical concepts about society. In this case it's difficult to come to relevant agreements, you should know that, counting as you do on the impressing "theoretical resources that during centuries liberal theorists have built". The problem is that those resources do not have to impress people whose ideas are based on different theoretical resources. You do not accept Marx's theory, that's ok, but you will not be able to discredit it simply by calling every Marxist that disagrees with you a Stalinist or referring to their theories as "shapeless ideas". This seems to me to be a are very poor way of debating. comradely, Claus. > Dear Jerry: >   > This is the dichotomic logic that leads you to support the dictatorship in > Cuba, and that will lead you to support any other Stalinist regime that > comes in the future. >   > You, some Marxists, have not even properly developed the normative > foundations of this institutional order. I suspect that the reason is that > you suspect that essentially these dictatorships are deeply > anti-socialists. >   > Here I am, ready to willingly display the theoretical resources that > during centuries liberal theorists have built, debating with someone who > doesn’t want to even try to deepen into the normative contradictions of > the shapeless ideas of the founder fathers of Marxism. >   > I hope you understand why I can not continue with this partisan > discussion. If I want to involve in this kind of discussions I’ll go to > the Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela, not to OPE. >   > Sincerely yours,A. Agafonow > > > > > ________________________________ > De: GERALD LEVY <> > Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <> > Enviado: miércoles, 28 de enero, 2009 16:11:29 > Asunto: RE: [OPE] Venezuela again > > > >> A serious analysis has to start explaining the socioeconomic foundations >> of the evolution of the two-party >> system in a regime that doesn’t have formal entry barriers in the >> electoral competition. >   > > Alejandro A: >   > No, a serious analysis has to begin with a historical analysis, including > class analysis.  > One has to scituate the current struggle in Venezuela, not in abstract > statements about > democracy and whether term limits are desirable, but in the actual > struggles > and material conditions of workers and the poor. One, additionally, has to > grasp > the nature of the opposition and whether they are as pro-democratic as > they claim, > not by their propaganda but by their actions.  Frankly, the whole > discussion by Chavez's > opponents - nationally and internationally - about whether there should be > term limits > is a ruse: they couldn't care less about an abstract principle, they just > want to see Chavez > gone by any means. What is 'hilarious'  sometimes are the inconsistencies > and hypocrisy of > these opponents:  e.g. an editorial of _The New York Times_  supported > term limits in > Venezuela and said that Chavez was an undemocratic tyrant for opposing > them. One > would think then from that editorial that _The New York Times_ was > committed to the > principle of term limits, but that is not all the case. In New York, the > people of the > City voted twice for term limits. Yet, when Mayor Michael Bloomberg asked > that > term limits be done away with (not through popular vote, but through a > vote of the > City Council), the _NYT_ supported Bloomberg's demand to get rid of term > limits > on the Mayor even though polls showed that the overwhelming majority of > New > Yorkers were opposed to this.  Of course there are many other examples as > well, > most notably the fact that many of the same forces which conspired against > democracy by supporting the 2002 coup d'etat talk about how "undemocratic" > Chavez allegedly is.  >   > In solidarity, Jerry > > >      _______________________________________________ > ope mailing list > > > _______________________________________________ ope mailing list

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