Re: [OPE] Latin America

From: Alejandro Agafonow <>
Date: Sun Nov 30 2008 - 05:25:03 EST

Jerry, your counterargument would have some degree of validity if you had the possibility to prove that in Cuba there is not a systematic repression of negative liberties.   And I think that you have misunderstood what "Loaded terminology" means. Remember that we are dealing with social institutions and not with atoms or molecules. Once we accept certain values, which due to their own nature have to be biased and/or emotionally charged, we can discuss scientifically if certain ways of organized social life promote those values. We can discuss objectively about certain institutions provided that there is unanimity about a core of subjective values.   It is difficult for me to understand why you object the normative nature that I attribute to the Cuban dictatorship. But please, don’t tell me that you don’t accept the socialist values of liberty and autonomy.   And Jurriaan points to another important thing. Reliable data is hard to get in Cuba, because we are dealing with an unaccountable regime. Nothing is less democratic than this secrecy. But I think that we go too far if we only blame USA because of Castro dictatorship. Castro is not a sister of charity.   Regards,A. Agafonow ________________________________ De: GERALD LEVY <> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <> Enviado: sábado, 29 de noviembre, 2008 22:28:29 Asunto: RE: [OPE] Latin America >  How it is possible that after 10 years of Chavista government the level of anomie in Venezuela > keeps among the highest in the region, is a problem that Chávez’s sympathizers have to face > instead of evading the reality.   Hi Alejandro:     There are a number of factors. First and foremost, the level of poverty - especially in urban areas. It is a reality - which can not be evaded - that much of Venezuela's wealth is owned by a small capitalist and landowning oligarchy. Another huge factor in promoting violence is the "opposition" which has incited violence and (with CIA financing and logistical help) is responsible for the (failed) junta and more recent acts of treachery. Then, there is the US which _wants_ (and pays for) instability and lawlessness in Venezuela. This is a tried and tested imperialist method for destabilizing "unfriendly" governments. The answer to _all_ of these questions is a mobilization of the masses and a quicker march towards socialism. The recent elections have given Chavez and the PSUV the mandate to do just that.     > In the case of Cuba the reasons must be the police like regulation and a system of > indoctrination that fosters the acceptance of an institutional order contrary to basic > socialist values like freedom and autonomy.   You jumped illogically to a conclusion which was not supported by your argumentation when you wrote what "the reasons must be" - and that, if I understood him correctly, was a large part of what Abelardo objected to.  There is nothing _logically_ which supports such a strong conclusion. Your 'process of elimination' type 'deduction'  has not considered all of the possible explanations (such as social cohesion in Cuba) _and_ accepted without question or criticism all of the claims  (by right-wing,  anti-Castro, anti-socialist) in propaganda directed at Cuba. Your posts on these topics are also, imo, too filled with with what mainstream social scientists call "loaded terminology" - e.g. "indoctrination".  Of course, left-wing and Marxian theorists are not immune from using loaded terminology either, but we do not generally (?) uncrtically accept the stories promoted by the bourgeois press,  reactionary communities (like the right-wing Cuban exile community in the US) and the U.S. State Department.   In solidarity, Jerry

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Received on Sun Nov 30 05:26:58 2008

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