Date: Thu Apr 26 2007 - 20:39:21 EDT
----- Original Message ----- From: Vicenš MelÚndez Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [OPE-L] The importance of the sraffian standard system in relation with the transformation problem (Cont.) Dear Mr Levy, Below there are two additional comments on the subject. Kind regards, Vicenš, 1.- Original message ----------------- "Dear Mr Levy, I send you the following comment in relation to the past discussion -but not the last one! - on the transformation problem (which I followed via website publishing), that could be pertinent to OPE-L. It has been said (by Maurisson and Abraham-Frois&Berrebi) that the sum of prices in relation to the sum of values and the sum of profits in relation to the total plusvalue, have the same proportion within the sraffian standard system (in such a system, for every product-branch, its use as input and its output, have the same proportion; this special situation can be obtained for all of these linear equations sraffian systems). However, as far as I know, it has not been stressed, in my opinion, the fact that it is not simply a special case in which the marxian transformation holds. This situation is precisely the case in which the system reproduces, having a surplus in the exact demanded input quantities and with no waste or scarcity of new inputs (replacing previous consumed constant capital and adding new investment that cover all surplus). An example of that case is presented in the reference given by Jurrian Bendien (Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:40:04 +0200): http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1934/collapse.htm (second example; it is composed to ensure that the inputs generated in the surplus are in the system's needed proportion, which is the pursued situation) In http://bscw.fit.fraunhofer.de/pub/bscw.cgi/55818049 you may find an Excel file, "example ajit Sinha", showing this same situation Kind regards, Vicenš, Vicenš MelÚndez Barcelona (Spain)" 2.- Comment from Ian Wright ------------------------ "Dear Vicenš, Sorry I cannot open Excel files. But if I recall correctly, an economy in Sraffa's "standard proportions" is indeed growing at its maximum possible rate. In this case, prices of production are proportional to standard labour-values, hence no transformation is required. This is a known result; I think Morishima discusses it. Best, -Ian." Comment to I Wright ------------------------------------ Labour analysis would be an innecessary detour because the quantites produced are the element that makes it possible such proportionalty of sums in prices and values (total production and profits and plusvalue). But, in my opinion, the values represent the real costs and profits generated, while in the relative prices what we have is a money expression where the rate of profit is also present (see dated labour in Sraffa) and may not represent exactly real costs and profits as for instance in the measurement of increases or decreases of prices when there has been technical progress (what is normally counted as price decreases due to technical progress may well be a price increase measured in relation to labour embodied) (see note on prices in address above) Nevertheless, it remains a remarkable point that when waste of inputs is avoided and the production is realized, there is a coincidence of labour and price magnitudes. 3.- Comment from R Vienneau ----------------------- "As I understand it, an economy in standard proportions need not be growing at the maximum rate of growth. Think what happens if workers all their wages, and capitalists consume some of their profits. Assume both workers' and capitalists' consumption baskets are in standard proportions. Nor are Sraffa's prices proportional to labor values when the economy is in standard proportions. What one can say then is that all of Marx's volume 3 invariants hold. I did open Vicenš's Excel file, but only looked at it briefly. I did not understand it. I find it a challenge to document a spreadsheet. It is true than when an economy is in standard proportions, it can theoretically grow smoothly. But the economy can theoretically grow smoothly, with Sraffa's prices prevailing, when the economy is out of standard proportions too. Think what happens if consumption baskets are not in standard proportions, but levels of operation of each process are such that needs for use are exactly met." Comment to R Vienneau ---------------------- I raise the question regarding the use of the surplus, that is, considering the rationality of the systems once a surplus has been produced, which I think is a more logical point of view. At that level it could be assumed not considering changes in capitalist consumption. Other circumstances like no realization of plusvalue, etc., are not considered either.
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