[OPE-L:5723] Re: Re: Re: why are we on this list?

From: Rakesh Narpat Bhandari (rakeshb@Stanford.EDU)
Date: Fri Jun 01 2001 - 04:36:36 EDT

>You once described me as a "class traitor" (don't you remember?). 
>Calling supporters of an LTV in general the Black Knight, in the 
>context of a Monty Python reference, is I would hope a far milder 

No Steve, I blurted out rather lamely that you were class traitors 
after reading five years' worth of criticism of value theoretic 
Marxists as charlatans and fundamentalist popes--which is clearly how 
you, Gil and Ajit think of those who find Marx's value theory to be 
basically sound. Do any of you seriously think such a low estimation 
has not been at the least implicit in what you have submitted to this 

Yet it seems that your damning criticism of the use value-value 
dialectic has not been cited by more people than Gil's chapter 5 
critique (which raises the question of where you both get the 
confidence to maintain such views other than from the general 
bourgeois encouragement for any logical critique of Marx's labor 
theory of value), and of course every economist knows the correctness 
of Ajit's argment that Marx would have had to give up his value 
theory upon comprehension of Bortkiewicz's complete transformation 
calculation with same integrity with which Frege abandoned his set 
theory on receipt of Russel's criticism.

The point to understand here is that no matter how much your 
criticisms can be turned against neo classical economics that you 
have given a radical imprimatur to the burying of Marx will secure 
you a position in bourgeois economics departments. For someone who, 
though an ostensible radical,  thinks a real life Marxian is a 
charlatan and a fundamentalist pope there will always be room at the 
faculty club. The ideological point of the university is not to 
propagate the ruling class point of view--that's why they have think 
tanks-- but to defuse revolutionary criticism.

There will always be room for rational alternatives to Marx in the 
university--whether it is so called analytical or "evolutionary" 
(Bernstein?) marxism or deficit spending, low interest rate 
Keynesianism or Bourdieuan sociology or left wing Heideggerian 

That's the nature of the beast.


>And for christ's sake, I never said that "the point of his 
>interventions has been to handicap the Marxian theoretical project." 
>Bullshit. I am willing to point out where I believe interpretations 
>of Marx have been illogical and/or untrue to Marx.
>At 10:13 AM 6/1/01 Friday, you wrote:
>>>Rakesh wrote in [5703]:
>>>>  I appreciate your presence here Steve, but if
>>>>  you would prefer to  engage other hetero
>>>>  economists, why are you on this list?
>>>Steve is on this list for the same reason others
>>>are: to exchange ideas, learn from each other,
>>>sharpen our own perspectives,  and challenge
>>>our own preconceptions.
>>Jerry, that intent does not come across if your opponent is 
>>characterized in the ridiculed form of the black knight.
>>>  We benefit enormously
>>>from the presence of members like Steve K and
>>>Gil and Gary and Ajit for they force us to
>>>explain what we might otherwise have taken
>>>for granted.
>>I disagee that much of benefit was derived from five years of 
>>discussion of the the putative logical problems in chapter five and 
>>the alleged mistake of not thinking out the implications of the 
>>value-use value dialectic. Gary did not respond to your or my 
>>questions about the methodology of comparative statics. I can't get 
>>anything out of Ajit's post because he now refuses to answer my 
>>responses since this would be a waste of his time.
>>>  Coming from different intellectual
>>>traditions, they also bring to the discussion a
>>>knowledge of a literature that we might not be
>>>as well versed in.  We are lucky to have them
>>>as members.
>>I think they have effectively derailed what was supposed to be the 
>>point of this list--to extend Marx's unfinished project into a 
>>theory of the world market, the state, central bank policy, etc. As 
>>Steve said, the point of his interventions has been to handicap the 
>>Marxian theoretical project.
>Home Page: http://www.debunking-economics.com
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>             http://www.stevekeen.net
>Dr. Steve Keen
>Senior Lecturer
>Economics & Finance
>Campbelltown, Building 11 Room 30,
>School of Economics and Finance
>s.keen@uws.edu.au 61 2 4620-3016 Fax 61 2 4626-6683
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